Slavic Unity

For us non-europe types could you explain this some more please

 

The idea is nice, but they don't want to unite.

And the moment you start herding them by force, it all goes to shit.

 

This, among other reasons, is why it's probably never going to work.

Since I'm a Slav myself (though I emigrated from my country seven years ago), I've actually felt a sense of "Slavic Unity" before. When I was a few years younger, Pan-Slavism was a very fascinating idea to me. I noticed similarities between our languages, cultures and traditions. I taught myself how to read Cyrillic and, although I don't actually know any other Slavic languages besides Polish, I can always understand a fair bit or two of what I read from the others. However, the problem with that idea is the fact that we Slavs have a blood-soaked history - and more often than not it was Slavic bloodshed because of wars and conflicts between us. And unfortunately, it seems that most of us are unable to put that behind us.

Pretty much all of the Slavic nations are quite conservative and traditionalist (but in a nationalistic way), meaning that they are unwilling to let go of ancient grudges. It's really stupid, but - for example - many Poles and Russians are still angry at each other for things that their ancestors have done long ago in the past. Fair enough, in the past few decades there has also been a lot of tension between the two nations when the People's Republic of Poland existed as a satellite state of the USSR (the same can be said for most of the other Slavic nations). However, what many people don't get is that it is not the fault of an entire nation's people; the responsibility for hundreds of years of conflict (as well as the recent turbulences) lies with the very few men who have ruled these countries as monarchs, dictators and now governments, pitting us against one another even though we have plenty in common.

Moreover, something that I’ve noticed is very widespread among Pan-Slavists is racism and chauvinist nationalism. This varies from the naive and foolish suggestion that people from different cultures should not mix or live in the same country to outrageous, full-on, Nazi-style, ethnic nationalism. Racism is something that I utterly despise, so that was ultimately the thing that pushed me away from Pan-Slavism and I’ve never looked back at it. I still feel a bit of solidarity with Slavs, but my views are far from that of the stereotypical Pole (or the stereotypical Eastern European in general) which makes me feel a bit unwelcome even in my own country, even though I love going there.

Last but not least, I think that if we did somehow manage to achieve Pan-Slavism that was not of a racist nature - then we’d realize that there’s no point in excluding other groups, when we could unite everyone. This renders the whole idea pointless.

 

I wouldn’t say it’s just Polish people – there has been plenty of hate from the Russian side also (including a series of murders that targeted Poles in Russia a few years back), though you are right that there is plenty of hate towards Russians in Poland. It is sickening to see discrimination anywhere. Yes, it also angers me that Poland is choosing to ally itself with the West – but I would not expect it to do otherwise, because the Polish government (just like any other government on this planet) are wankers.

However, I wouldn’t want the Polish government to side with Russia either. The current government in Russia is absolutely rubbish and that country has a history of exceptionally shite rulers. It’s a shame that many of the countries in Eastern Europe are stuck between two imperialistic superpowers – the US (along with the Western European states) to the West and Russia to the East. It would be nice if Poland, Ukraine and the others could stand on their own instead of choosing between lesser evils and all that crap.

I agree about the former – this is something that is common among Pan-Slavists. I disagree with it, but at least people with such views are usually capable of having a discussion without jumping at someone’s throat. But you also get people with Pan-Slavist ideas who would kill a black man if they met one in their country. Sure, not all Pan-Slavists are like that, but a considerable part is. I know this because I’ve seen people like them. You cannot avoid that; when your group’s ideology is based on uniting one ethnicity and excluding all the others, violent racism will naturally develop within your group.

Oh, I assure you that there are plenty of Poles who suffer from similar delusions. I am simply not one of them. However, fear/disgust/hatred towards Romani people is common in many countries around the world. They are an ethnic group that has to stand some of the most severe discrimination in various countries, usually due to their unusual lifestyle and/or stupid misconceptions and myths about their culture. In Poland this type of prejudice is also very common, regardless of the actual numbers of Romani people in the country.

If you don’t want to talk about it, then why did you start this thread? If you want all of the Slavic nations to unite, then surely you must have some sort of vision for their future and how they’d be able to maintain such unity? But if your ideology is dictatorship with socialism, then it is non-existent and impossible to achieve. Among other things, one of the key elements of socialism is the lack of an elite – so no one rules over anyone. A dictatorship is the direct opposite to that, where there is a very distinct elite which has absolute power. You cannot combine these systems together. You could have a dictatorship with socialistic economic elements (e.g. collectivisation of land), but you cannot have a socialist dictatorship – unless you are a naive liberal whose definition of socialism points to the Soviet Union, but I don’t think that’s the case.

I highly doubt that what you’ve listed here is everyday life for a Romani person in Slovakia. These are probably extreme cases, if not made-up stories by the local racists in your area. You wouldn’t believe how many similar stories I’ve heard about the Romani in Britain, yet never had I seen any of it happen. Sure, I’ll admit that many Romani people lead an unusual lifestyle of vagrancy and all that, but they’re people too. I hope the majority of Slovaks are not as prejudiced towards the Romani people as you are, though the amount of Romani women who have been forcefully sterilised in Slovakian hospitals doesn’t paint a very favourable picture.
Also, where did you get those figures from? The census from 2001 says that there were less than 200 000 Romani people living in Slovakia. Are you telling me that this number grew by over 500 000 in just 12 years? Percentage-wise, that’s giving Maoist China a run for its money! :lol:

On that we can agree and it’s a well-made observation. However, I don’t see how your nationalistic dictatorship would be any better than what we have today.

I never said you were talking about killing foreigners. All I said was that there are some Pan-Slavists who are considering this.

 

Pan-slavism was an entertaining thought until I realized that out of all slavs I've met I pretty much hate every other one, especially Russians. They are almost always illiterate obnoxious fucks.

I don't socialize with them and I don't want anything to do with them.

 

Gee, thanks. :lol:

 

Well this was a interesting read I thought everything east of germany hated everyone east of germany. i suppose two world wars a cold war, did not help much

 

Damn, this was....an interesting read.

I'm just a stupid imperialist dirty facist American pig, so I won't pretend to really have an understanding of cultures I've never experienced firsthand, but I will say that any kind of movement that focuses around eliminating ethnic and cultural diversity strikes me as naive and doomed to fail. There's nothing wrong with a bit of nationalism, but wide-spread segregation has never gone well. Believing that your culture is in danger because of a neighbor from another country just seems....paranoid.

And "overthrowing oligarchs who lead the people into voidness of capitalism"? Exterminating government officials you don't agree with? What fucking year is this?

I know we all just want people to get along and all, but if people are identifying you as facist, then either you're doing a very poor job of explaining your point of view or are a bit overly idealistic. Just my opinion, but that's some damn dangerous territory to be encroaching on when you legitimately suggest that some people are lesser or undeserving.

 

First a message to the mods- this thread might get heated and so it should but please dont start banning or deleteing please

On topic= I kinda doubt that all of the slavic nation's will join together because what will happen AFTER the join? you have probably pissed off The EU/NATO to no end, so then what

Regards the ebil capitalist Jabba


(Whats with the whole extermination buisnes this isn't Africa/the middle east)

 

But we are talking about Pan-Slavinism, just going off of what you've told us about it. And you brought up your own ideology, not us.

And from what you have told us, (especially in your seemingly indiscriminate hatred of everything Romani) it seems idealistic.

And yeah, our nation's got its fair share of issues from putting the wrong people in power, and Democracy and Capitalism have more than their fair share of issues, but no government system is perfect, and we're obviously more than happy (for the most part) to try and make what we have work. Our colossal debt is something that we're going to have to face, but more because of some awful people we've allowed to be in charge, not because of the mortal sins of capitalist ideology.

It sounds like you guys are having your own share of issues though, and I'm sorry to hear that, for what it's worth.

Wooooo political debate

 

I'd rather deal with it in one thread than all over the forums.

 

You’re obviously not being serious here, but in case you were offended by my description of US (and Russia) as “imperialistic superpowers”: I did not mean to offend any Americans or Russians here, I was referring to your governments – which make up less than 1% of your country’s population. I have no beef with the American people.

This. Though you wouldn’t believe how much of this bullshit you can find in Eastern Europe. Of course, these are still (thankfully) a minority of people. However, that minority seems to be growing – especially in the youth – and they are becoming more and more dangerous.

Although I’m no fan of capitalism and would love to see a completely different system put in place of it, I definitely disagree with what Yakov is saying and would not support what he has in mind. A revolution is a revolution, but just killing off government officials is useless. It doesn’t solve anything. There’s a pretty cool quote I have (though I can’t remember who said it first) and it goes something like this: “You can’t blow up social relations with a Molotov cocktail.” Killing a certain group of people would only make things worse.

Sorry mate, but you’ve just lost all credibility in this argument. I was putting up with your blatant racism earlier to see if you could at least argue your point, but it seems to me that – at least when it comes to the Romani – all you’re capable of is spewing uncontrolled hatred.

Czechoslovakia was not a socialist country. Neither was the People’s Republic of Poland, neither was the Soviet Union nor the rest of the Eastern Bloc. If you knew anything about how capitalism works, then you would also know that these countries never achieved socialism or communism. They were basically authoritarian regimes that functioned using state capitalism. In the Eastern Bloc, ownership over the vast majority of the means of production was public – which means that it was in the hands of the state.

I’ll cite myself here from a previous post I made in another thread on this forum: “Public property, property that is owned by the state, is not in any way anti-capitalist but actually an important part of that system which can coexist with private property. You do not remove the bourgeoisie by simply repressing them - that solves nothing; the social relations which produced that class in the first place still existed in the Eastern Bloc. Hence the ease with which these societies turned into what we have today - all that was needed was some privatization and voila: you have capitalism again (which has never actually gone away).”

I thought Pan-Slavism was an important part of your ideology?

 

I figured as such, although over the internet it's hard to tell with some folks.

Personally not a fan of socialism and similar systems, but hey, if that's the kind of country you want, it's not really my (or any other foreigner's) place to disagree.

I'm with you on pretty much everything else.

Maybe the language barrier is complicating things, but it sounds to us like you're judging people based on their cultural ties, and pretty harshly at that. It sounds like you're accusing all Romani of being these terrible types of people, and I personally can't agree with such a blanket judgement.

I doubt anybody here hates you, we're just having a discussion like you wanted. Did you really expect everybody here, from numerous locations and cultures and lifestyles across the globe, to fully agree with you?

 

No matter what you show me or what you say about the Romani people, you will never convince me that all of them are like what you say. I've seen these people in the UK and they are not like that. I never denied that there are some of them who lead such a lifestyle as shown in the vid, but I know that not all do. Moreover, one of my mother's uncles married a Romani person. I've never had the chance to meet her, but I heard she led a completely normal lifestyle and on top of that was a beautiful woman. Of course, her husband's family rejected both of them because she was Romani and because they didn't get any money from their marriage. Lastly, I'd like to add that I've seen white British families living in conditions similar to those shown in the vid. A person's lifestyle, personal hygiene, house and behaviour are not determined by their ethnicity; they are determined by their own personality and the society that they live in, regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation.