What is happening with Russia and Ukraine now?

Fair enough. But then you should acknowledge that the hysteric cries of the West about "defending the ukrainian democracy" have no vailidity whatsoever.

Very unlikely. The Nazis have skillfully presented themsevels as the main force behind the ousting of Yanukovitch, and electors will rewards that.

Besides, the western regions of Ukraine have historically been right-wing, and that's where they have the most supporters.

 

I don't know about other Western nations, but the US was founded by a bunch of rebels illegally overthrowing the existing government, and built an entire set of national laws around making sure that the people would be well prepared to do so again if necessary (hence the whole "Right to Bear Arms" Amendment). So, I mean, when we hear of a similar-sounding thing happening over there, you can understand the biased viewpoint.

 

Very true. What many poeple don't realize is that obnoxious patriotism and mild nationalism is rampant across pretty much all of the Eastern European states (and they have large minorities of the far right). Anyone with left-wing anti-establishment views is usually labelled a communist straight away. Since Eastern Europeans have lived for decades under strict state capitalist regimes that limited freedom of the individual more so than contemporary Western democracies and exploited left-wing terminology whilst doing so, this is basically how many Eastern Europeans see left-wing views and communists. It's all Stalinism and zero freedom to them. And I wish more people would understand that, instead of treating us as if we were all wackos. The general opinion in Poland pisses me off too, but sometimes I just have to completely change my approach if I want people to understand that the left-wing isn't limited to its authoritarian part.

When the Russian Federation - the successor of the USSR and also the historical enemy of most other Eastern European states in terms of territorial aspirations - becomes an actual threat to a nation's sovereignty again, far right nationalist ideas become somewhat legitimized by this (in the eyes of the average citizen) and it's easy for them to enter the mainstream. It's what has been happening in Ukraine. Though, of course, we should not generalize so much. There are plenty of people living in Western Ukraine who are shitting themselves at the mere thought of Правий сектор and they don't want to have anything to do with them. Also, one thing I'd like to point out is that using the word "nazis" to describe all of the people you don't like in Ukraine is a bit dumb and inaccurate. Usually we are talking about fascists, but not necessarily neo-Nazis, and there are also far right wingers who aren't fascists and sometimes even left-wing xenophobic nationalists. All groups that I dislike as much as you though.

hwell: A better way of putting it would be that Western Ukraine has always been more pro-independence, whilst Eastern Ukraine has always been more pro-Russia and, well, in some instances actually Russian. Although the nationalist extremes in Western Ukraine are usually far right and very Russophobic, the nationalist extremes in Eastern Ukraine aren't any better as they glorify Russian imperialism and Joseph Stalin. There are problems everywhere, not just in the west.

 

Using nazi runes and simbology is enough for them to be called naxis, imo.

 

As I said before, many of the organizations you are referring to do not use any of this. The racist nationalists organizations in Eastern Europe are more diverse than you think. Of course, some of them are actually neo-Nazis, but even then if you actually believe that "using nazi runes and simbology" is all the criteria someone needs to be a Nazi, then you are being extremely ignorant. I'll put this into perspective: the vast majority of the people in the world who use socialist/communist terminology and symbols have barely anything to do with socialism or communism. The USSR and all of the "people's republics" in the world being a prime example of that. I bet it pisses you off when so many people claim that all those states were actually socialist (the fact that the term "socialist state" even exists, which is a juxtaposition in itself). So don't make the same mistakes for that reason alone.

This is one of the reasons why traditionally left-wing words like "liberal" and "libertarian" have come to be used as terms for "economic freedom" and "pro-business" ideas, which is why now as a left-winger you have to specify what you actually mean by these terms and that you are not right-wing (usually you're better off not using the term "liberal" at all, since it has adopted a very different meaning and if you're a libertarian in the more traditional sense of the word then you have to explicitly state that). It's why female sexists, and sometimes genuine egalitarian feminists, are being called "feminazis" by so many people. It's one of the reasons why kids at school are being taught that "communism" is a totalitarian regime that severely restricts personal freedom, when in reality they are referring to an authoritarian system of state capitalism that has almost nothing to do with actual communism. And so on...

 

Haha, over here it's the exact opposite. Well, Libertarian's meaning sticks, but a "Liberal" over here in the states is typically someone who supports more government intervention, while the far-right believes in the whole "Laissez-faire" approach to things.

And yeah, the vast majority of people I know think of actual State Capitalism whenever we hear the word "Communism", because we just hear about "Communist Countries" and see Stalin's special way of agricultural reform.

 

I'll call a nazi whomever i like, regardless of your opinion.
And you can go ahead and call me ignorant if you like, but i'd advise you to refrain from doing so with anybody, because it certainly deteriorates relationships between people.

I know that Right Sector uses nazi runes and simbology, and that's enough for me. Whether people who support thme are actually members of Right Sector or part of the plethora of nationalist/fascist groups in Ukraine, i couldn't care less about.

 

Both in England and Poland, I think liberals are usually understood as people who are "socially liberal" (by this they generally mean "more progressive than conservatives" - so they might support LGBT rights and stuff like that, but aren't really radical in any form whatsoever), but also advocates of privatization and deregulation.

Exactly and it's so damn annoying. :lol:

 

@Rolfwar: Take a chill pill. The worst thing you can do on the internet is lose your temper, and I can tell you that from my own experience since I do it all of the time.

There are opinions and then there are facts.

I am criticizing you because I like you as a good friend on the internet. If I was doing this just to piss you off, I'd be throwing insults at you rather than criticizing your point of view. If you feel offended by me being honest about what you are saying and giving my genuine point of view about the topic, then I am sorry. If you want, we can start using warm and fluffy language and half-truths instead. That way no one could ever possibly get offended, but I am not a fan of this type of conversation.

Well, there you go. However, if you don't care about it then you still don't have to mislead others into believing that most or all of the nationalists currently active in Ukraine are Nazis, right?

 

Perhaps i am just old-fashioned, perhaps that is not your custom, but around my parts we find it extremely tasteful to avoid insulting other people.
And yes, i'd kindly ask you to stick to that register of language. I hoep the effort will not tire you too much,yes?

There is no such thing as a nationalist that isn't a nazi in Ukraine, at the moment.
And even if there were, what is exactly the difference? Is it useful to the discussion? The moment i'll want to learn about all the micro-differences among the far-right groups in Ukraine, i'll read an essay about it
It is my impression that in this topic, we are all trying to give our opinions on the matters as amateurs and more or less common citizens.
We are not trying to provide a technical analysis of everything, at least that's what i understood.
But if i am wrong, and am discussing with highly-qualified professionals and political analysts,please let me know, and i will immediately find another place, where my opinions will be held in higher regard.

Until then, i believe that fussying around the use of words bears no purpose other than to annoy/harass others and to digress from the topic.

 

I'd say that distinguishing between a nazi and a nationalist is pretty relevant in this discussion since "nationalists" in Ukraine also cover the segment that simply want a sovereign nation free from Russian influence. That does not mean that the segment are racist or even fascist at all.
Anyway, even if we are not political analysts, in order to inform other people about your views and maybe even have an enlightening debate, having arguments and valid points to back up your views (and defending these if others wrongly argue that they are invalid) is desirable.

 

As I said, I am not insulting you - I am criticizing. If you were an enemy of mine, then I would insult, but you are not. Why would I insult you anyway? Why do you see "ignorant" as an insult? It is harsh, but it is not an insult, and I especially do not mean it as an insult in this context.

Though I think we can both agree that this is an insult and it's exactly what you meant to say.

You do know that labelling all people of a certain point of view as "Nazis" is more than a tad bit of offensive, right? I'm not a fan of nationalism - I see it as a viewpoint that is built on a false identity. Regardless of this, I accept the fact that it is usually only chauvinist nationalists who are racist and even then, not all chauvinist nationalists are Nazis. Just like not all fascists are Nazis - Nazism is a type of fascism, not the other way around. Also, I do think of it as being extremely ignorant to say that all nationalists in a certain area are Nazis. It would be very similar to saying that all people of a certain area who practice Judaism are greedy - and I bet you would find that offensive, because it is not true.

Not all nationalists are Nazis. In WW2, a large number of the resistance movements formed across Europe were independence nationalist and so many of them gave their lives so that their countries weren't run by Nazis. Yet you think it's ok to put them all in the same category. Things are much more complicated than that, and neither of us has to be a professor to know that. Also, judging from the way you were talking about communism in some other threads, I think it's fair to say that you do know plenty about political views. And I personally think people should seek to know as much as possible and expand their knowledge regardless of their background or the state education they are receiving. To me, saying that all nationalists in a certain country are Nazis is an unnecessary simplification. That is all.

I agree.

 

I will leave the thread.

 

I'm sorry you feel that is necessary and I apologize, since I am obviously the only reason why you are deciding to leave the thread.

 

The RF is whining about the evil Neo Nazis in Ukraine but when there are Neo Nazis in Moscow no ne cares:

[YOUTUBE]BUNv010Jf1I[/YOUTUBE]

They even support them with their super intelligent anti gay laws that are totally not pointless......

 

And the US is whining about meddling with sovereign country affairs being unacceptable while being in seven ongoing armed conflicts at the same time.

This is a wrong way to look at the situation. Ukraine is a conflict of interests between the US and the RF and in the information war everything goes. Both parties will throw hypocritical straw man arguments around.

Meanwhile Ukrainian SU-25 spotted during an attack:

[YOUTUBE]Uy1RxMQJhcI[/YOUTUBE]

 

Very NSFW. UA army shooting at civilians evil russian spec ops in Mariupol:

Spoiler

[YOUTUBE]8levXLq6fjk[/YOUTUBE]

EDIT: I'll just dump all relevant links I could find on the matter, most of them NSFW.

Spoiler

[YOUTUBE]YVFOgc2S0do[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]FqXh4sgBDwI[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]MhfPkHvFBvE[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]kno4MEp9sPY[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]QLP99XQ5MZo[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]pDMB9n18gb8[/YOUTUBE]

 

As I've stated numerous times earlier, my interests are not aligned with the Ukrainian or Russian state and I support neither. And you don't have to be anti-Ukrainian, pro-Russian or any other bullshit to see what's going on this video. You do however have to be a prick to deny that ordinary people are getting hurt in all of this (which is what some of the Euromaidan wankers are doing - denying or trying to justify murder). I was almost cheering for the guys who were telling the tanker to GTFO of their city and back to Kiev. It was also surprising to see how long they managed to hold the tank back in the other video.

 

Me too. They were yelling this for a month now though.

Anyway, here is a video of Yatsenyuk and co being booed ("Hitler kaput! Bandera kaput!") by a crowd on Victory day:

[YOUTUBE]4PMot1YwlTM[/YOUTUBE]

 

I just hope this doesn't set the stage for real life Metro 2033.