What is happening with Russia and Ukraine now?

Ukrainian parliament now says that Ukrainian Insurgent Army actually were independence fighters as opposed to Nazi collaborators and are the good guys, USSR period is now an "occupation", the term "Great patriotic war" is now gone, Victory Day is no more, and Soviet symbols and propaganda are banned.

What freedom of speech?

WW2 Veterans of Ukraine are furious, naturally, their sacrifices are being quite literally spit on:

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Earlier president Poroshenko said USSR and Germany are to blame for WW2:

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If that is true, then what the hell were Churchil and Roosevelt doing in Yalta seventy years ago on the territory of the country that started the WW2, according to Poroshenko, in the "occupied Crimea", no less?

 

Meanwhile, the Armed Forces of Novorossiya rehearse for the upcoming Victory Day Parade, on the 9th of March:
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First of all, UPA collaborated with the Germans only temporarily - they also fought against them, though it is true that Poles and Russians were always considered the main foe. Nevertheless, I think there is enough evidence of their sick doings and their messed up ideology that we can condemn them without using the blasé point about Nazis. The main problem with UPA wasn't that they collaborated with the Nazis for a while but that they were Ukraine's equivalent of Nazis (with their own genocide as well).

As for the shift in what terminology and symbols are used, this is kinda expected since the country is being westernised like Poland, Czechoslovakia and the Baltic states were during the 1990s (only the transition is much more violent). It is simply incorrect to refer to this as some sort of sudden loss of "freedom of speech", since Ukraine was never a particularly democratic country to begin with. It formerly used whatever Russia permitted, now it is gradually heading into the shackles of NATO and the EU. Whichever camp it joins, Ukraine is notorious for the mafia that is ruling there. This mafia used to be pro-Russian and tackled any opposition, now it is anti-Russian and tackles any opposition.

It is not true that things were universally better under Russian/Soviet influence. The USSR committed plenty of atrocities in Ukraine to establish such firm control there, now the US and its allies staged a coup in Kiev and then Russia seized the opportunity to use the dissatisfaction in the East of the country to maintain as much of its former colonies. Let's not forget what this is all about. This is not the evil Westerns taking Ukraine away from its loving Russian brother, it's a fragile state falling apart due to a conflict between two superpowers vying for economic and consequently military control over its land.

Well, the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany's joint invasion of Poland is commonly accepted as the outbreak of World War II. So from that point of view, it is true that Germany and Russia literally started WWII. On the other hand, it is very much Britain and France's fault for letting Hitler prance about and do what he wanted to do in Europe during the interwar years, meanwhile delaying any alliance with the USSR and thus pushing them to side with the other empire to buy time for the imminent attack (and enslave those pesky Eastern Europeans again in the meantime). It all depends on what you mean by who is to blame for it. Alternatively, you could also say that capitalism demanded a war (metaphorically speaking) instead of pointing fingers at this or that place.

I think you meant 9th of May.

 

Never implied that.

Big picture is important, but the point still stands: there is a difference between acknowledging bad things and blatant historical revisionism. Their ancestors did not sacrifice their lives for their children to call nazis heroes.

If the USSR was so bad and "literally Third Reich", why not demolish the Dnieper Dam? Or anything built from 1922 to 1991 while we are at it, residential buildings, factories, hospitals and universities alike. They claim that the Soviets provided 0 benefit, so they clearly don't need those.

Alternatively I could say that although the reason why WW2 happened is complex and cannot be pinned to one specific event people shouldn't diminish the blood price that was paid to save them from the good old ethnic cleansing and allow them to type this today. Because that would make them ungrateful cunts.

Bamul, this was a jab at Ukraine pretending to be a civilized European country.



It's funny because Europe has none.

 

Well, that's life. I think the same can be said about pretty much any war ever thought anyplace. Many of those involved wished an end to all wars, but look where we are now.

Yes, right, because everything Ukraine has is due to Russian intervention... it's amusing how you seem to accept all the benefits of Soviet rule, whilst ignoring all the negatives. It's the exact opposite of what is happening in Ukraine right now.

Of course, but the problem is that their "saviours" sometimes behaved like troglodytes. If you visit most of the Eastern European countries, you will find that the elderly have similar impressions: the German occupation was horrific, but with time it became predictable (roundups, searches for Jews, etc.). When the Russian liberators came, people were shocked - they were told that help was coming, but the soliders acted like they owned these lands, raping and pillaging along the way, as victors do. Obviously though, one's wartime experiences varied depending on where they were (e.g. Poles living in the western parts of the country preferred Soviet occupation, whilst those in the eastern section preferred German occupation). My point is that you would have to ignore the Soviet massacres and period of Stalinist repression (which for many was simply a continuation of the horrors they experienced during the Second World War) to view the Russians as heroes in Europe. And Ukraine is so extensively Russified that about a half of it identifies as Russian anyway.

Fair enough. The concept of being civilised is hypocritical to begin with. Some of the most "civilised" nations in the world are also known for the bloodiest cases of systematic extermination of those they considered less civilised.

 

Well, yes, kinda.

If you look at the history of the country (Can't really link you to a wiki article, there is an edit war going there for the past year), technically it was pieced together by the Russian Empire and the Soviets.

Oh no, I don't mean that at all. USSR has done a lot of really really shitty things, but it's not the only things they did.

I'm just exaggerating to absurdity and calling out the fallacy in their reasoning: If they want to get rid of everything USSR because it was so bad, why not get rid of everything the Soviets built, since it clearly gives no benefit. Unless these hospitals and factories do provide benefit, in which case their claim is bullshit.

Yes, and that's the entire point. All I'm saying is that instead of "there is both bad and good about them, like every single country in the world" they just go full retard and erase everything, good and bad.

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Odessa citizens meeting their president and chanting "Faschism shall not pass!" and "Murderer":

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Same event, nationalists telling veterans "Didn't burn enough of you bastards", referring to May last year:

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Robert Parry on one-sided Ukrainian crisis media coverage and withholding information:

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You seem to forget the fact that Ukraine was under Polish control for centuries as well (sometimes parts of it, sometimes whole). More importantly, you're forgetting that regardless of whether the rulers are Polish, Russian or Ukrainian - the majority of the people living there were Ukrainians (or Ruthenians, depending on exactly which time period we are talking about). Without a doubt the stronger states that controlled the Ukraine have had an immense impact on its development, but most of the things that were built there are the result of the hard work of the people who lived there, not some Russian tsar or Polish king.

Anyway, apart from that, now that you have clarified what you meant I agree with all your other points.

 

Nope, not forgetting that. I'm saying that in its current state and form it was pieced together by Russia from bits taken from other countries and it inherited what it has today from Soviets.

Okay, that's a fair point.

 

Right sector goons confiscating Russian newspapers because "propaganda":

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Meanwhile new posters started appearing across Ukraine. They detail how to discover a hidden "separatist" (Criticizes ATO, protests against conscription and mobilization efforts, protests against government, uses Russian symbols) and encourage people to report such people to the Security service of Ukraine. And such separatists can be put to prison for 8 to 12 years for this.

 

Ukraine shot itself in the leg. By pushing out a law that pretty much makes everything USSR government did illegal, they done goofed. Ukrainian SSR becomes an enemy state since it fought on the side of USSR, which is now literally Third Reich.

They can be demanded to give back Galicia, Bessarabia, Volhynia, Bukovina and Zakarpattia to their original owners since they were annexed by USSR, going back to pre-1922 borders.

This also means that the act of transferring Crimea to Ukraine in 1954 is illegal, therefore Crimea joining Russia it totally fine from a legal standpoint under this new law.



Of course this is not going to happen and they will never admit it. But this is extremely amusing.

 

Ukrainian company VT Group is selling NATO supplies Ukrainian army bought or got as donations from Europe. Armored cars, supply vehicles, even the Saxons they paraded around on TV just a few months ago.



Nice. They've been re-selling NATO weapons to Syria before, so it's no surprise they do this shit again.

 

Swedish military admits they lied last year. There was no Russian Submarine near Stockholm in October, it was just a civilian boat. Their analysts fucked up, intentionally or not, and raised a shitstorm.

 

Ukraine decided that it doesn't need to pay it's debts. They owe 3 billion USD to Russia for purchasing their bonds in 2013.

 

NSFW:

A former minister Oleg Kalashnikov was shot and killed in his home in Kiev.

Spoiler

A reporter Sergei Sukhobok was shot and killed in Kiev.

Spoiler

A reporter and a writer Oles Buzina was shot and killed in Kiev.

Spoiler

Of course, nobody in Europe or USA even remotely cares about reporters and politicians speaking against the new government being killed in Ukraine, at least not officially. It's not in Russia, so who gives a crap? A couple months ago Nemtsov's death stirred up quite a shitstorm, it even got it's own Wikipedia page. Obama personally commented on it and condemned it. Where are his condemnations now? Russian liberals have whined about Bloody Putin's Regime™ so loudly it was heard on the other side of the planet, why are they silent now?

EDIT: This just keeps on going, a reporter Olga Moroz was killed.

EDIT 2: BBC noticed and wrote a short report. Doesn't come close to the Nemtsov articles that were discussing his death for weeks ([1] [2] [3] [4]).

 

Our pal Anton Geraschenko says on his facebook page, that Putin has staged these murders. Because taking out pro-russian reporters and politicians helps his cause?

 

*Facepalm facepalm facedesk facewall.*Seriously?!*Sigh.*This is why I do not involved in world poltics....this is why I just became a school teacher bullshit like this and U.S being idiots I hate my country sometimes...

 

Dude, don't be like that.

The United States are protecting their own interests. In a really shitty way, but at least they do it, unlike Ukraine or the Baltic states. The actions of your government cause a lot of problems all over the world, but at least they make sense from a non subjective viewpoint.

 

An organisation calling itself the "Ukrainian Insurgent Army" has taken responsibility for the murders.

 

Ultras in Odessa yesterday:

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